Podcast: Episode 185 with Ryan Holiday


“To me, what grit is is not despairing and not giving up just because things are really hard or because things are going really, really poorly. The courage to be like, ‘Man, things have fallen apart, this is awful, but I’m going to figure it out, I’m going to keep going.’ To me, hope is one of the most courageous things there is, to continue on, to keep going, to try again after one has failed. There’s almost an element of irrationality in it. I think what runners do—and I forget which runner said this but I’ve always loved the quote—‘it doesn’t always get worse.’ So it’s really bad, you’re on mile 30 or whatever it is of the race, and it feels like your body is about to fall apart and you can’t go on, part of what your mind does is extrapolate out, ‘if it’s bad now, it will obviously get worse from here,’ and that’s actually not the case. You push forward and often it gets better.” 

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Ryan Holiday is a runner and #1 New York Times bestselling author whose books have sold more than 4 million copies worldwide. I’ve long been a fan of Ryan’s writing, most of which centers around Stoic philosophy, and his work has personally had a huge impact on me and how I live my life. His latest book, Courage Is Calling, was one of my favorite reads of 2021 and served as the basis for the conversation we had for this episode of the podcast. 

What is courage? Is it a choice? Can we make it a habit? What’s the difference between being scared and being afraid? How does fear of what other people think of us influence behavior and decision making? These are just a few of the questions I explored with Ryan in this episode and the takeaways are widely applicable for us not only as runners, but as people just making our way through the world. I took a lot away from this conversation and I know that you will too. 

Ryan Holiday: Website | Book | Twitter | Instagram

the morning shakeout: Instagram | Twitter

Mario Fraioli: Website | Strava

This episode is brought to you by:

Tracksmith. Tracksmith crafts performance running apparel, inspiring publications, and distinct experiences that allow runners to indulge in the sport’s rich culture. Go to tracksmith.com/mario to check out some of my favorite apparel picks and use the code MARIO at checkout to get free shipping on your order while also helping support #LASAVESTRACK. 

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Music and editing for this episode of the morning shakeout podcast by John Summerford.